[Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

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oversized
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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - constant restarting!

Postby oversized » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:01

hello friends, it's been a while.. :)


I just tried Windows memory diagnostic (WMD) (from Hiren's boot CD)

it says that WMD could not process the system memory map because of deficiencies within WMD, not the computer.

Reported error was: THE MEMORY MAP CONTAINED RANGES THAT EXTEND ABOVE FOUR GIGABYTES.
(and hence the test will not be able to test all the installed memory).

BTW, you're saying that "thermal" and "processor" modules were those that caused the machine to reboot :? Wouldn't it be the same issue with an x86 kernel(s)? I'm not sure why would that specific modules caused reboot issue only on an x64 kernel? The above mentioned reported error from WMD is more likely our way of light. Something is wrong with 'the memory map' inside of BIOS , like there's no border for the fourth GB or more precise - 4096 MB.

One more perhaps less important thingie: try to run GoldMemory with AUTO (instead of BIOS) memory addressing. :) With BIOS it's ony ~3 GB's, and with AUTO - full 4 GB's but it just hangs the app like expected xD

On the other hand, MemTest86 is able to test the whole 4 GB's. :|


If you both have some spare time - try OpenSolaris 2009.06. It must be using PAE but i'm confused why it is enabled by default, since there are known issues with drivers and PAE.
Amilo Pi 3525 Eclipse black, 4096 MB RAM, Penryn-3M core P7350 (2.0 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 3MB L2 cache) / OpenSolaris 2009.06 / Ubuntu 10.04.04

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - constant restarting!

Postby NeoLojik » Mon Dec 21, 2009 18:04

Merry Christmas all ^^

My limited testing with Ubuntu 9.10 64bit seemed stable, but I didn't find time to use it for extended periods of time, so it's entirely possible it still crashes with extended use.

However, yesterday I stumbled upon something very interesting...

The default 32bit Vista and Windows 7 kernels fully support PAE for accessing more than 4GB of RAM. It's possible, by patching the kernel, to fully use anywhere up to 64GB of RAM under 32bit. The reason it's not enabled by default is Microsoft restrict this functionality to their premier server versions, such as Server 2008 Datacentre. The NT kernel checks it's license when loaded and caps the memory map at 4GB on all consumer-level editions of Vista and 7.

To overcome this you need to patch a few bytes in the kernel, bypassing the licensing, and then work around the fact it's supposed to be signed by Microsoft, but it does work.

You can read the entire article here:
http://www.geoffchappell.com/viewer.htm ... memory.htm

There are programs to auto-patch the kernel out there, but I'm not going to link to them, google is your friend.

I've contributed about all I can to this thread. Without the knowledge to debug the issue further I'm not sure what more we can do other than stick to 32bit + PAE if you really need all 4GB of RAM. I'll keep checking back though.

All the best.

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - constant restarting!

Postby supertorpe » Tue Dec 22, 2009 15:15

Merry Christmas and thank you all (oversized and neolojik) for your efforts and time trying to workaround this problem.
During these days, I'll run an Ubuntu 9.10 live-cd to verify its stability in this notebook.

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - constant restarting!

Postby oversized » Wed Dec 23, 2009 21:54

Merry Xmas!

Take a look - Win 7 32bit with PAE:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=37543&view=unread#p133475


Gonna give it a try 8)


P.S. Ubuntu 9.10 64bit works just a little bit more stable on mine Pi 3525, but random reboots are still present like I expected :evil:
Amilo Pi 3525 Eclipse black, 4096 MB RAM, Penryn-3M core P7350 (2.0 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 3MB L2 cache) / OpenSolaris 2009.06 / Ubuntu 10.04.04

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - constant restarting!

Postby Ichijoe » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:14

oversized wrote:
Ideas about LAN card drivers, etc. are wrong. FSC designed the Amilo Pi3540 with an incorrect memory controller! The device reports wronge values to the OS. I'll hope the FSC support will fix this some day.


http://www.amilo-forum.com/topic,2326,- ... html#p8578


We have ignition :) Memory controller is to blame for all this troubles and the 'good' news is the whole Amilo Pi series is involved! :o


Well as an Amilo Pi 2550 user, with Windows x64, and running exactly at 4096Mb RAM (2x2048 - 200-Pin SO-DIMM 5300), everything seems to be rock stable over here, and has been for some days now.

How exactly am I to understand the term "Random" exactly?

The only time my System shuts down, is when the Battery dies, the strange thing is allthough I'll get the Battery Warning light, and BIOS "Beep" to warn me, I don't have those warnings under Vista, but my up-time averages to around 90-Minutes before the whole thing collapses. And, when it does "collapse" it doesn't try to reboot again afterwords, in fact I think it may have actually gone into hibernation mode.

I'm gonna go have sniff 'round the Powersettings and see if I can't find out some more, as to why I don't get any indication that the Batteries about to die. (Other then the Battery Meter on the Toolbar, that is.)

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby oversized » Sat Jan 02, 2010 17:15

That's "yesterday's news" :) The Memory controller is just fine, the bug is inside BIOS (something with memory mapping over 4 GB boundary). Why it does occur only with 64 bit systems (instructions) we are not sure, since with PAE enabled (36bit OS support) the machine is rock stable with full 4 GB's of RAM usable.

"random reboots' -> it's hard to even install any 64bit OS with 4 GB of RAM... it just reboots in the middle of the installation, after 3, 5, 10 minutes.... you never really know. So in order to install 64 bit OS we need to remove one RAM module and by that action lower total amount of RAM to ~3 GB (or less), so the installation will run without problems. Afterward, we can limit both Windows and Linux to use only ~3 GB's and that way we can use 64bit OS but with ~1 GB of RAM thrown away. :x

The conclusion - if you really need 64 bit OS - DO NOT install more than 3 GB's of RAM on your system. If you need all 4 GB's, install PAE support (36bit).

Since Fujitsu removed all legacy Amilo models (FSC) from their official site, I doubt there's any hope we can expect BIOS update to fix this issue... :twisted:
Amilo Pi 3525 Eclipse black, 4096 MB RAM, Penryn-3M core P7350 (2.0 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 3MB L2 cache) / OpenSolaris 2009.06 / Ubuntu 10.04.04

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby Ichijoe » Sat Jan 02, 2010 21:12

oversized wrote:That's "yesterday's news" :) The Memory controller is just fine, the bug is inside BIOS (something with memory mapping over 4 GB boundary). Why it does occur only with 64 bit systems (instructions) we are not sure, since with PAE enabled (36bit OS support) the machine is rock stable with full 4 GB's of RAM usable.

"random reboots' -> it's hard to even install any 64bit OS with 4 GB of RAM... it just reboots in the middle of the installation, after 3, 5, 10 minutes.... you never really know. So in order to install 64 bit OS we need to remove one RAM module and by that action lower total amount of RAM to ~3 GB (or less), so the installation will run without problems. Afterward, we can limit both Windows and Linux to use only ~3 GB's and that way we can use 64bit OS but with ~1 GB of RAM thrown away. :x

The conclusion - if you really need 64 bit OS - DO NOT install more than 3 GB's of RAM on your system. If you need all 4 GB's, install PAE support (36bit).

Since Fujitsu removed all legacy Amilo models (FSC) from their official site, I doubt there's any hope we can expect BIOS update to fix this issue... :twisted:


Oh so the problem only exhibits itself ~during~ the ~installation~ and not in the day-to-day operation then...
Hummm crap and I just had the pleasure of a full installation this last Christmas Day, (then w/2Gib) and then installed the new RAM a few days afterwords.

And I really have no interest in having to redo this over again to put this to a test. :(
But I suspect that's likely what I'll do though, my only wish was that there were a way to slipstream SP2 back onto my install Media.

My Specs:
Fujitsu-Seimens: Amilo Pi 2550
CPU: Intel Core2Duo T5550 (Merom) @ 1.87Ghz
Chpset: Intel PM965
RAM: 2x2048 Kingston Value RAM SO-DIMM 667Mhz DDR-2 CL5
WD BEV 320Gib HDD
Intel 3945ABG Wi-Fi Card
Realtek LAN
Motorola Dialup 56K MODEM
Realtek Sound
ATI 2400HD Graphics w/256Mb

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby oversized » Sat Jan 02, 2010 21:56

Ichijoe wrote:Oh so the problem only exhibits itself ~during~ the ~installation~ and not in the day-to-day operation then...
Hummm crap and I just had the pleasure of a full installation this last Christmas Day, (then w/2Gib) and then installed the new RAM a few days afterwords.


NO! You got it wrong - the problem is there all the time! I just posted the solution how to install x64 OS and later limit the RAM to max 4095 (the system will be able to see and use ~3GB just like you're running x86 kernel). If you don't limit the amount of RAM your system will use all 4 GB's but you can't work on such unstable system with random reboots! You can't have your OS for 5 minutes stable, sometimes it won't even load your desktop! That's the term 'random reboots'.

If you try to run some Live CD for example Ubuntu x64 you'll get random reboots all the time!

But I don't get it why are you asking this for your Amilo model? You said yours doesn't have such issue and you are able to run x64 OS without any problems (with 4 GB's installed)?

Like I said:
The conclusion - if you really need 64 bit OS - DO NOT install more than 3 GB's of RAM on your system. If you need all 4 GB's, install PAE support (36bit).

Full usable 4 GB's on any x64 OS isn't possible without BIOS update, which we can expect probably never :twisted:
Amilo Pi 3525 Eclipse black, 4096 MB RAM, Penryn-3M core P7350 (2.0 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 3MB L2 cache) / OpenSolaris 2009.06 / Ubuntu 10.04.04

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby Ichijoe » Sat Jan 02, 2010 23:59

oversized wrote:
Ichijoe wrote:Oh so the problem only exhibits itself ~during~ the ~installation~ and not in the day-to-day operation then...
Hummm crap and I just had the pleasure of a full installation this last Christmas Day, (then w/2Gib) and then installed the new RAM a few days afterwords.


NO! You got it wrong - the problem is there all the time! I just posted the solution how to install x64 OS and later limit the RAM to max 4095 (the system will be able to see and use ~3GB just like you're running x86 kernel). If you don't limit the amount of RAM your system will use all 4 GB's but you can't work on such unstable system with random reboots! You can't have your OS for 5 minutes stable, sometimes it won't even load your desktop! That's the term 'random reboots'.

If you try to run some Live CD for example Ubuntu x64 you'll get random reboots all the time!

But I don't get it why are you asking this for your Amilo model? You said yours doesn't have such issue and you are able to run x64 OS without any problems (with 4 GB's installed)?

Like I said:
The conclusion - if you really need 64 bit OS - DO NOT install more than 3 GB's of RAM on your system. If you need all 4 GB's, install PAE support (36bit).

Full usable 4 GB's on any x64 OS isn't possible without BIOS update, which we can expect probably never :twisted:


Well ok taken all that into consideration, then it has to be poppycock that ~all~ Amilo "Pi's" are affected then.
As I haven't experienced any form of random crashing ever, and I've been running Windows Vista Ultimate x86-64 with all 4096Mb's for very nearly a week now.

BTW: I'm running the last BIOS available for the Amilo Pi 2550 which was / is 1.15c from the 30.09.08.
And at least I haven't had any of these problems.

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby oversized » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:29

Correct - older Amilo Pi 2000 series doesn't seem to have this issue. Since you have Pi 2550 with 4 GB's and x64 OS, you can see for yourself that your model/series doesn't have this BIOS bug. If I remember correctly, not all of the Pi 3000 series have this issue. Our Pi 3525 does for sure :mrgreen: Pi 3540 or similar is reported to have the same issue, I guess it has to do with the same mainboards used for these models... deadly "F46" and it's BIOS :twisted:
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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby Ichijoe » Sun Jan 03, 2010 16:38

oversized wrote:Correct - older Amilo Pi 2000 series doesn't seem to have this issue. Since you have Pi 2550 with 4 GB's and x64 OS, you can see for yourself that your model/series doesn't have this BIOS bug. If I remember correctly, not all of the Pi 3000 series have this issue. Our Pi 3525 does for sure :mrgreen: Pi 3540 or similar is reported to have the same issue, I guess it has to do with the same mainboards used for these models... deadly "F46" and it's BIOS :twisted:


Well for a newer product then the Pi 2550, I must say that, Fujitsu-Siemens (Fujitsu), tech support really sucks then.
Well Price was a factor for me and the 2550 (Turned 1 Y/O last November), when I bought it, so that much was to be expected.
At least I was able to squeeze 'em for some proper Install Media (i.e. VHP-32bit Plus Drivers & Apps).
But that was 'cause there "Backup Software" was pants!

I guess Fujitsu don't want to support the older Siemens stuff now that they demerged.
But really this level of service is just poor form from Fujitsu, 'cause there's no excuse for this kind of service.

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby oversized » Mon Jan 04, 2010 0:13

Word. It's just one big nonsense what they did - "sorry we don't support former FSC models" :!: We discussed that matter here before... :evil:

At least I hope they will not cancel the warranty for the "former FSC models" that would be for the front pages. :roll:

Did you heard their official statement "We don't support ANY 64 bit OS" :shock: - year 2009. it was just *stupid* to conclude something like that! :x That would mean if your notebook goes down with random reboots alongside any x64 OS, you're on your own. Yeah, we thought we bought latest C2D CPU (Centrino 2 certified) with x64 support but forgot to ask if the BIOS supports the x64 thing :mrgreen:

Above all this - I'm quite happy with my Amilo. I can live with this issue for sure, but other customers might not share my opinion since they need x64 OS.
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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby Ichijoe » Mon Jan 04, 2010 13:59

oversized wrote:Word. It's just one big nonsense what they did - "sorry we don't support former FSC models" :!: We discussed that matter here before... :evil:

At least I hope they will not cancel the warranty for the "former FSC models" that would be for the front pages. :roll:

Did you heard their official statement "We don't support ANY 64 bit OS" :shock: - year 2009. it was just *stupid* to conclude something like that! :x That would mean if your notebook goes down with random reboots alongside any x64 OS, you're on your own. Yeah, we thought we bought latest C2D CPU (Centrino 2 certified) with x64 support but forgot to ask if the BIOS supports the x64 thing :mrgreen:

Above all this - I'm quite happy with my Amilo. I can live with this issue for sure, but other customers might not share my opinion since they need x64 OS.


Well that's BS even it I was forced into the "Microsoft Tax", that shouldn't have to bind me to that OS FOR LIFE, if the Hardware is capable of supporting a 64bit OS, and One would think that a Core2Duo, would, then it should. END OF STORY!!

Anything less is unacceptable.
I guess these People will learn ~that~ when they drive their market away, this "Story" doesn't do much to get me buying anymore of there Products, not that I could as FSC no longer exists, but you know what I mean.

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby tnt » Sun Jan 10, 2010 20:29

the bottom line of this story is the attitude Fujitsu has about their customers: "we took your money, so now we don't care!"

very, very sed, bed, ugly...

no use to comment on that any more, but it will be the major fact when I start considering buying any new hardware (notebook or anything else).

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Re: [Pi 3525] 64bit OS problems - random reboots with 4 GB RAM!

Postby oversized » Mon Jan 25, 2010 23:27

I'm afraid that's just how it goes these days. No more true quality, no more real support - everything is Made in P.R.C. and "we're just selling the goods, sorry, buy... no complains!" :x

But let's get back to the tech :)

I got an IA-32 Intel software developer's manual which explains PAE and Page Size Extension (PSE-36) which refers to a feature of x86 processors that extends the physical memory addressing capabilities from 32 bits to 36 bits. PSE-36 mechanism is a simpler alternative to the Physical Address Extension (PAE) method. It uses the Page Size Extension (PSE) mode and a modified page directory table to map 4 megabyte (MB) pages into a 64 gigabyte (GiB) physical address space. PSE-36 was introduced into the x86 with the Pentium III architecture, and therefore is supported on Core2Duo CPU's.
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